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You tell me if this is a good idea...
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    blue32years said:

    Where does the free thing stop ?

    Free cars to car thieves just incase they rob yours?
    Free paddy power accounts with an endless budget incase they rob the kids piggy bank ?
    Free booze ?


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    For anyone addicted to anything physically addictive, you provide them with the means to fight that addiction. It doesn't have to be free Heroin, but if needs be then so be it. Rather that than the status quo.
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    Winston Wolfe said:

    The dealers will find another criminal activity to make their money......as for free Heroin, regardless of whether it's free or not the majority will still do f*ck all aprt from live in pi$$ and shlt.


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    That's their choice. If they have free Heroin but still go out and rob, THEN bang them up. Yes dealers will move on, but we can deal with that problem once it's identified. For now, let's deal with what's on the table.
  • blue32years
    Posts: 16,298
    Ok lets go with this free heroin


    How much a week ?
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    That's their choice. If they have free Heroin but still go out and rob, THEN bang them up. Yes dealers will move on, but we can deal with that problem once it's identified. For now, let's deal with what's on the table.


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    But deus, if that is the case you're robbing off Peter to pay Paul....

    As for giving free Heroin, how many times a day does a heroin addict have to shoot up? (if they inject of course). And then how long does that render said user helpless?

    Then consider how this would impact them working -

    a.) who is going to want to employ an junkie who you might get 4 hours work out of when you can employ a non-addict who will give you 8 hours.

    b.) the dirty stigma attached with users - How would this impact your non-using staff and their performances at work?

    c.) if they're incapable of working due to their addiction then they'll be getting benefits that we pay for......so they get money and free gear......why would they even consider trying to work?

    I'm all for decrimninalising other drugs but IMO giving out any free drugs is stupid.
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    blue32years said:

    Ok lets go with this free heroin


    How much a week ?


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    Whatever is necessary to maintain a "regular" lifestyle without the need to worry about where the next fix is coming from. Will some overdose? Yes. Do people die of alcohol poisoning? Yes. Why restrict one addictive substance and not the other?
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    Whatever is necessary to maintain a "regular" lifestyle without the need to worry about where the next fix is coming from. Will some overdose? Yes. Do people die of alcohol poisoning? Yes. Why restrict one addictive substance and not the other?


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    Yeah but we don't give out free alcohol......
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    Winston Wolfe said:

    But deus, if that is the case you're rpbbing off Peter to pay Paul....

    As for giving free Heroin, how many times a day does a heroin addict have to shoot up? (if they inject of course). And then how long does that render said user helpless?

    Then consider how this would impact them working -

    a.) who is going to want to employ an junkie who you might get 4 hours work out of when you can employ a non-addict who will give you 8 hours.

    b.) the dirty stigma attached with users - How would this impact your non-using staff and their performances at work?

    c.) if they're incapable of working due to their addiction then they'll be getting benefits that we pay for......so they get moeny and free gear......why would they even consider trying to work?

    I'm all for decrimninalising other drugs but IMO giving out any free drugs is stupid.


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    I've actually seen a docu on the subject and the majority of the addicts given control over their addiction were able to live a normal working life when they didn't have to think about the next fix.
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    Winston Wolfe said:

    Yeah but we don't give out free alcohol......


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    Why not? Taxes maybe!
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    I've actually seen a docu on the subject and the majority of the addicts given control over their addiction were able to live a normal working life when they didn't have to think about the next fix.


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    Right then we need to get that documentary forwarded to Government HQ......
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    Why not? Taxes maybe!


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    totally agree....but you'd not be taxing free heroin anyway lol
  • blue32years
    Posts: 16,298
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    Whatever is necessary to maintain a "regular" lifestyle without the need to worry about where the next fix is coming from. Will some overdose? Yes. Do people die of alcohol poisoning? Yes. Why restrict one addictive substance and not the other?


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    Ha ha , endless supply


    Welcome to the end of civilisation


    You seem to keep going on about alcohol mate as though if one is anti heroin they are pro alcohol.

    Not all .. I regularly see the evils of alcohol.

    As bad as any drug out there




    But its not free for one
  • blue32years
    Posts: 16,298
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    I've actually seen a docu on the subject and the majority of the addicts given control over their addiction were able to live a normal working life when they didn't have to think about the next fix.


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    Im sorry but thats b 0llocks


    A heroin addict cannot live a normal healthy working life.


  • sambo applecart
    Posts: 24,216
    there is a reason that some people turn to drink and drugs, and that is they find it a daily struggle to control the demons they have in their heads, so the use of alcohol and drugs is the easiest way to help block out their troubles. As most drugs and drink are natural depressants, this only goes to compound the problems they have, and make the situation worse....possibly leading to people taking their own lives........

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people drink and use drugs for recreational purpose, however, once you start using them regularly, it becomes an addiction, rather than a bit of fun......and that in turn can lead to problems, both for yourself and the people around you....whivh then has a knock on affect in your work life etc. People all of a sudden have 2 e's on a sat night, then they have them on a sunday night too, the come down kicks in tues-weds time and people cannot be chewed going to work.....this might seem like nothing when its one or 2 people, but when you have thousands of people doing it, the affect on the economy could be pretty drastic.

    I see what Deux is saying to an extent, but, i also see the affect drugs and drink could have in the long term, with people becoming addicted, needing therapy, treatment etc, and possibly this would out weigh any positive affects legalizing certain drugs could have on the economy.
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    blue32years said:

    Im sorry but thats b 0llocks


    A heroin addict cannot live a normal healthy working life.


    -----------------



    Sorry mate but that's bollox too. I've seen Heroin addicts live a normal life having been given control of their addiction.

    The reason i keep bringing alcohol into it is because it's a legal drug and i find it hypocritical of the government to take the stance they do. As if there's any more than 10% of poloticians that haven't tries E or weed etc. 
  • escla
    Posts: 2,450
    I worry about Idi's habit, only " exotic ciggies" now but what will it leas to ?
  • Deus Ex Machina
    Posts: 3,208
    sambo applecart said:

    there is a reason that some people turn to drink and drugs, and that is they find it a daily struggle to control the demons they have in their heads, so the use of alcohol and drugs is the easiest way to help block out their troubles. As most drugs and drink are natural depressants, this only goes to compound the problems they have, and make the situation worse....possibly leading to people taking their own lives........


    I appreciate that the vast majority of people drink and use drugs for recreational purpose, however, once you start using them regularly, it becomes an addiction, rather than a bit of fun......and that in turn can lead to problems, both for yourself and the people around you....whivh then has a knock on affect in your work life etc. People all of a sudden have 2 e's on a sat night, then they have them on a sunday night too, the come down kicks in tues-weds time and people cannot be chewed going to work.....this might seem like nothing when its one or 2 people, but when you have thousands of people doing it, the affect on the economy could be pretty drastic.

    I see what Deux is saying to an extent, but, i also see the affect drugs and drink could have in the long term, with people becoming addicted, needing therapy, treatment etc, and possibly this would out weigh any positive affects legalizing certain drugs could have on the economy.

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    If they banned alcohol along with recreational drugs i wouldn't have a problem tbh, it's the stance that gets on my wick. If i'm allowed to killed myself with drink then i'm ****ed if they're telling me i can't smoke my mind away. It's my mind.

    I've been taking drugs and alcohol since i was 8 and have never had a problem stopping when necessary. I get that some do, but yo can't legislate for everyone, hence so much booze.
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    sambo applecart said:

    there is a reason that some people turn to drink and drugs, and that is they find it a daily struggle to control the demons they have in their heads, so the use of alcohol and drugs is the easiest way to help block out their troubles. As most drugs and drink are natural depressants, this only goes to compound the problems they have, and make the situation worse....possibly leading to people taking their own lives........


    I appreciate that the vast majority of people drink and use drugs for recreational purpose, however, once you start using them regularly, it becomes an addiction, rather than a bit of fun......and that in turn can lead to problems, both for yourself and the people around you....whivh then has a knock on affect in your work life etc. People all of a sudden have 2 e's on a sat night, then they have them on a sunday night too, the come down kicks in tues-weds time and people cannot be chewed going to work.....this might seem like nothing when its one or 2 people, but when you have thousands of people doing it, the affect on the economy could be pretty drastic.

    I see what Deux is saying to an extent, but, i also see the affect drugs and drink could have in the long term, with people becoming addicted, needing therapy, treatment etc, and possibly this would out weigh any positive affects legalizing certain drugs could have on the economy.

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    "legalizing certain drugs"

    So which ones do you think should/ could be legalised pal?
  • blue32years
    Posts: 16,298
    Deus Ex Machina said:

    nukll


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    Theres not many things I state as fact


    But being addicted to heroin can in no way be leading a healthy normal life.


    No chance. I know that for a fact
  • Winston Wolfe
    Posts: 4,665
    blue32years said:

    Theres not many things I state as fact


    But being addicted to heroin can in no way be leading a healthy normal life.


    No chance. I know that for a fact


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    Although in fairness the statement is so close to being true, just take out the words healthy and normal.
  • ToffeeCup
    Posts: 2,980

    Having posted a few dozen pages on this in the past, largely in conversation/rant with bunter, I'll add my tuppence.

    In all fairness, it does look like a very attractive climate for the government to take this step but I very much doubt they will. Personally, I'd like to see cannabis and e made legally, manufactured under license to agreed standards and sold at a price that makes a black market no fun at all financially (including in that price a good tax levy).

    All the usual arguments have been had over and over so I'll just stick to three points:

    Much as you can debate the hazards to peoples health there is a cost to some ones life chances that shouldn't be under estimated when a young lad, maybe 16-20 is caught and made a criminal for having a bit of pot.

    I'm sure a lot of people get away with it and the odd bobby has turned a blind eye too but for a quarter or more it does and has happened. Just so needless, society does not benefit from that result it suffers.




    The police would have a much more focused and targeted approach to serious, organised and drug related crime. Removing a whole host of people from what is by law a criminal situation would put so many man hours into fighting the crime that really effects society. It would have a huge effect that MP's seem to put no time at all into considering.





    Cannabis itself, I'm not saying it does no harm at all in its natural state. But it would be worth finding out because the stuff illegality has turned cannabis into does do harm.

    People have, for thousands of years, used both the Indica and Sativa cannabis plants for a variety of reasons. Simply put, Indica gives you a docile, reflective, inward looking high. Over exposer often leads to an almost cromatosed state. Sativa gives you a euphoric, cerebral, creative and energetic high. Both have their uses but in this country you are only ever exposed to the former. And not in its natural state either. Largely a genetically engineered, purposely grown skunk variant that by design produces much higher quantities of the psychoactive properties than the plant would produce if left to its own natural devices.

    Indica as a plant grows well indoors. It doesn't grown to be very tall and can be pruned into quite a smallish bush and produces a large amount of buds that grow in tight nit and dense clusters.

    Sativa does not grow well indoors. It can grow to anything from 6 to 25 foot tall and it produces buds which are smaller and more spread out over the plant meaning that excessive shaping by pruning excessively impacts on the amount of bud the plant produces.

    Its not hard to see, in a position of illegality, why people looking to produce the plant for profit go with the Indica over the Sativa.

    And then there is the breeding, under purposely created conditions (in dutch seed banks for example), of strains that not only produce a stronger strength produce, but also for the growers profit, in much higher volume per plant.

    Here in the UK, the plant people smoke is a specifically bred genetic mutant of the Indica plant. Full stop.

    We can measure and do see its effects in society, largely related to mental health. Pretty much all the statistics we have on the subject are based on this stuff. But little consideration is given to the fact that most of the outcomes are the product of its black market environment and not of the original plant itself.

    Personally, I'd like to see the results/statistics of people smoking naturally occurring strength Sativa. Or both types, within the natural parameters that mother nature provided.

    Point being, I don't think anyone can say that cannabis is bad for you. The UK hasn't been smoking it for a long time now, and when they were no one was really keeping any official records.

    Most things are bad for you taken in certain quantities, moderation is key. But in this case, peoples qualms, issues, reservations, and fears about cannabis have nothing to do with the actual plant itself. But are purely related to how we treat it under its illegal status.
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