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Posts: 24,216September 2012MaestroHaze said:
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no mate, you dont believe in free speech, cos you say that you respect somebody for having a,b,c beliefs, then you say, you dont get it and cant respect somebodies opinions, you cant have it both ways my friend. -
Posts: 2,158September 2012 Everybody is entitled to believe what they like, they even have the right to try to convert me, I in turn have the right to f**k them off. However I don't think I should have the right to impede on their lives for them displaying their beliefs, be that wearing a turban or whatever they believe is necessary to show their religious inclinations, including starting threads about the existence of god ;-) . I've stated my athiesm before but good luck to you if you believe in something that gives you some sense of peace.
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Posts: 1,183September 2012 What's happening to England? This is what multiculturalism is doing. If you want to wear a cross then go ahead, it's not in the 'rule book' to wear one it's a personal choice. What next are they going to tell muslims and jews etc to remove their head gear? Like f u c k they will! Ah sure lets discriminate the average Christian. This kind of stuff is just going to get worse and worse. For what? To keep people of other faiths/atheists happy? I don't care what faith the lad beside me is, i'd care about newly built mosques going up in my area. I hate your country but I want to live here and build a mosque! f u c k off multiculturalism!!
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Posts: 1,183September 2012 Also I'm moving to a muslim country and I' going to build myself a church and spread the word of the gospel. Do you think they would be cool with that?
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Posts: 24,216September 2012mikraz said:
Everybody is entitled to believe what they like, they even have the right to try to convert me, I in turn have the right to f**k them off. However I don't think I should have the right to impede on their lives for them displaying their beliefs, be that wearing a turban or whatever they believe is necessary to show their religious inclinations, including starting threads about the existence of god ;-) . I've stated my athiesm before but good luck to you if you believe in something that gives you some sense of peace.
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Thats the thing though mate, i aint trying to convert anyone to anything, you have your beliefs, and opinions and i respect that. So to bring up the thread about the existence of God, in which the aim was to look for other people opinions on a subject, is neither preaching to someone, or trying to force your opinion on them, your asking for their opinion that is all. And nor at any point have i said that i do or do not believe in God. -
Posts: 24,216September 2012DoobieMonster said:
Also I'm moving to a muslim country and I' going to build myself a church and spread the word of the gospel. Do you think they would be cool with that?
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most likely not...... -
Posts: 181September 2012sambo applecart said:
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Yes I do believe in free speech, I'm not stopping people from expressing their opinions/beliefs.
Respect is different from giving someone their right.
You're saying that giving someone a right to belief in something contradicts respect, that makes no sense. You're saying I should grant everyone respect for their beliefs regardless of what they are, which includes theses so called extremists.
I used the example of God again. God as a concept is irrational, because it can't be proved. Two of my family members are Christian, and it means a lot to them. Does that mean I should give them respect for their belief or respect as a person? I'm for the latter. I give them the right to express that, but I don't respect their beliefs just because they are my family. Another example. Holocaust deniers say that the Holocaust didn't happen. I've given them the right to say that, should I respect that opinion? No. See where I'm getting at here sambo?
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Posts: 24,216September 2012MaestroHaze said:
Yes I do believe in free speech, I'm not stopping people from expressing their opinions/beliefs.
Respect is different from giving someone their right.
You're saying that giving someone a right to belief in something contradicts respect, that makes no sense. You're saying I should grant everyone respect for their beliefs regardless of what they are, which includes theses so called extremists.
I used the example of God again. God as a concept is irrational, because it can't be proved. Two of my family members are Christian, and it means a lot to them. Does that mean I should give them respect for their belief or respect as a person? I'm for the latter. I give them the right to express that, but I don't respect their beliefs just because they are my family. Another example. Holocaust deniers say that the Holocaust didn't happen. I've given them the right to say that, should I respect that opinion? No. See where I'm getting at here sambo?-----------------
Mate, as much as i enjoy debating with you, this analogy is a little bit out of context. By using extremists as an example you are using a small minority of the worlds populations to 'enforce' your point of view.If God does or does not exist, i have no idea, and as for the science thing, lets use the higgs bosun particles as examples. Yes they exist, when asked how it works are how they are joined together, we are left with as much head scratching as there is when people try and prove god's existence, So please mate, i could sit and go too and fro all night long, but the answer is, NOBODY knows and that is the bottom line, so in that repsect nobody should have an opinion opr belief, as none of us have a clue. -
Posts: 181September 2012
sambo applecart said:null
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And also just to clarify. I don't have to respect your belief/opinion if it is irrational/negative/unfounded. If you're a good person I will respect you, if you're a bad person I will not respect you as person. The same works with an opinion.
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Posts: 2,158September 2012sambo applecart said:
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Think you missed my point sambo, I agree that you are entitled to your beliefs be they preachy or not. My point is exactly that, you can have that belief whether I agree or not what I cant do is impede on your life as a result of your belief, I can disagree and that's all I'm entitled to do. wtf is with the null. -
Posts: 24,216September 2012mikraz said:
Think you missed my point sambo, I agree that you are entitled to your beliefs be they preachy or not. My point is exactly that, you can have that belief whether I agree or not what I cant do is impede on your life as a result of your belief, I can disagree and that's all I'm entitled to do.
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Who's impeding?? By saying this, your reference is me to impeding on your life about my beliefs, when i have already said, i've no idea what the score is tbh with regards science, god, etc etc. -
Posts: 24,216September 2012MaestroHaze said:
And also just to clarify. I don't have to respect your belief/opinion if it is irrational/negative/unfounded. If you're a good person I will respect you, if you're a bad person I will not respect you as person. The same works with an opinion.-----------------
Your hard work mate al give you that..... -
Posts: 2,158September 2012sambo applecart said:
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i have not said you are impeding on me with your beliefs, what i am trying to say is as a result of yours or my beliefs we do not have the right to affect each other in a way that would result in material loss or physical injury, i am by no way trying to have a go. -
Posts: 181September 2012sambo applecart said:
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It isn't out of context, I explained before that if you have an opinion or an agenda for that matter which is unfounded or negative, I don't have to give you respect. That is all I'm trying to say sambo in a nutshell, I ain't infringing on anyone's rights. But I also agree with your second paragraph. I get **** off though that religion has become a taboo subject. That we can't disagree or say that they are wrong.
I agree that no one knows whether God does or does not exist. Excuse my cynicism, as I'm just fed up with religion in general.
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Posts: 181September 2012mikraz said:
i have not said you are impeding on me with your beliefs, what i am trying to say is as a result of yours or my beliefs we do not have the right to affect each other in a way that would result in material loss or physical injury, i am by no way trying to have a go.
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I agree, as long as you do not infringe my rights with your opinions, then I'm ok with that.
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Posts: 1,537September 2012 WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER KNOXY PAEDO CATHOLICS THREAD.
Seriously, please stop this before it happens again.
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Posts: 2,158September 2012Jxg said:
WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER KNOXY PAEDO CATHOLICS THREAD.
Seriously, please stop this before it happens again.-----------------
Its the one time the blue room unites against a common foe though lad, he's just a broken bitter t*t. -
Posts: 49September 2012Everybody is entitled to believe what they like, they even have the right to try to convert me, I in turn have the right to f**k them off. However I don't think I should have the right to impede on their lives for them displaying their beliefs, be that wearing a turban or whatever they believe is necessary to show their religious inclinations, including starting threads about the existence of god ;-) . I've stated my athiesm before but good luck to you if you believe in something that gives you some sense of peace.
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This discussion seems to have generated a bit of heat but I think Mikraz's opinion has been one of the more balanced, and some might find this unusual as he professes to be atheist while I take my Christian faith (the biblical kind) very seriously indeed.
Sambo and MaestroHaze really seem to disagree on what "respecting the other's opinion" means, and it seems to me that there is a distinction between "respecting the other's opinion" and "respecting their right to hold that opinion". Respecting their opinion surely involves conceding that their opinion is valid, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that. However, the freedom to hold an belief that doesn't make sense should be protected, as long as the rights of others (e.g. to live in peace and security, and their freedom to worship according to their conscience) are not undermined.
DoobieMonster also makes a valid point when he draws attention to the fact that the groups who shout loudest about being offended when others disagree with them are deafeningly silent about the denial of the most basic freedom of worship rights in countries that are dominated by their own religion.
It seems clear that most governments in western Europe are prepared to bend over backwards to appease the more militant and aggressive groups even if it means denying the basic rights of other faith groups simply because they're unlikely to use these kinds of tactics.
Surely the politicians don't think that people haven't noticed - maybe they just think no-one will care enough to do anything about it!
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- blue32years September 2012
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- sambo applecart September 2012
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