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Posts: 24,733September 2011 you would think so luke, unless you have the money to buy the club, what business is it of anybody elses..?!
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Posts: 3,035September 2011 you dont just put a valuation on a thing like a football club it's too difficult because of the variations....
through exprience i will tell you it starts with a "asking price" that is usually way over the top !!
the buyers auditor will then give a "starting point" based on the valuation audit...
and so it begins... -
Posts: 120September 2011briceybaby said:
i think it would be a bad move to come out with an asking price when trying to sell a football club. Mainly because all the variables like share price, interest rates, on field asset value and debt etc, go up and down quite a lot. Look at all the trouble mike Ashley had when he put Newcastle on the market after they went down.....he came out with a price and whatever interest that buyers might of had, went out the window.
its not like selling a house because, short of getting a survey done, what you see is what you get. to put a club on the market with an asking price would also require you to include in the ''add'' all the financial ins and outs and, we all know how that story goes....
If interest in Newcastle went out the window when Mike Ashley confirmed a price, the only thing that confirms is that the price was too high! Why else would a potential new owner or investor be put off by the price tag being revealed?
You are indeed correct in saying that in the selling process the accounts would have to be revealed and yes we all know about that just as Mr Henry across the park knew too well when he was buying into them. Bad accounts does not necessarily change the value of the club to the potential buyer... it just means, as is exactly what Mr Henry done, the value is paid to the creditors and the remaining sum to the shareholders! Which across the park meant the owners got nothing, zilch!!
Lets just say the mail got it right, I mean no smoke without fire and all that. If they want £100m and for the potential owners to then take on the debt and fund a new stadium (even though the stadium funds are ringfenced according to bill), do you seriously believe anyone in their right mind would value EFC that high??
When H&G were selling the kopites, there were no interested parties apparently... or should I say any interested parties weren't interested enough as far as H&G made us believe. Hmm... I sense a bit of deja-vu! -
Posts: 120September 2011koolhandluke8 said:
Why would he want to threaten legal action ? they haven't slandered him in any way shape or form ?
why would he want to put the price in the "public" domain ?
why would he want to tell 3 total strangers in a "secret" meeting his private business ?
is uggest he only wants to discuss it with potential buyers..dont you ?
No one suggested he should tell 3 total strangers his private business so you question this why?
Why would he not want to put the price of the club in the public domain? It is just a valuation of what he thinks the club is worth.
What difference would it make to a potential buyer? He has to tell them the valuation eventually. Why not save them the trouble of knocking on his door, asking the price then walking away? -
Posts: 3,035September 2011 you suggested it in your post #58...
he wouldn't put it in the public domain for the very reason it's being questioned now...for some it would be too cheap..for others it would be too dear....i will gaurantee that wherever it is being offered there will be a "price tag" on it..it's just not for every Tom DICK and harry to see...
he doesn't tell them the valuation he tells them the asking price...the buyers auditors will thell the buyer their audited valuation...the comparables and variables in such a thing as a football club make it too difficult "to just put a price upon it" and as stated previously form the seller it is usually a high price anyway to incorporate the variables.... -
Posts: 120September 2011sambo applecart said:
you would think so luke, unless you have the money to buy the club, what business is it of anybody elses..?!
Sorry, I'm just waiting for the next part of this post... you know the bit where you say 'Only joking'.
By paying money every season to EFC we have a vested interest as to where the club is going!
By supporting Everton all my life, along with my family, we have invested emotions in this club!
If the club cannot be sold to ambitious investors who want to move the club on, we want to know why. The only viable reasons left are either due to the fact that the price is too high, or the board aren't trying hard enough! By method of elimation we will get to the truth. If the club is not sold soon, what will we sell next to stop the banks from putting us on our knees?
Barkley? Rodwell? Fellaini? Baines? Take your pick.
The loans of players brought in are just that, loans. This is a fearful future for EFC if things continue in this way. -
Posts: 3,159September 2011bluedayz said:briceybaby said:
i think it would be a bad move to come out with an asking price when trying to sell a football club. Mainly because all the variables like share price, interest rates, on field asset value and debt etc, go up and down quite a lot. Look at all the trouble mike Ashley had when he put Newcastle on the market after they went down.....he came out with a price and whatever interest that buyers might of had, went out the window.
its not like selling a house because, short of getting a survey done, what you see is what you get. to put a club on the market with an asking price would also require you to include in the ''add'' all the financial ins and outs and, we all know how that story goes....
If interest in Newcastle went out the window when Mike Ashley confirmed a price, the only thing that confirms is that the price was too high! Why else would a potential new owner or investor be put off by the price tag being revealed?
You are indeed correct in saying that in the selling process the accounts would have to be revealed and yes we all know about that just as Mr Henry across the park knew too well when he was buying into them. Bad accounts does not necessarily change the value of the club to the potential buyer... it just means, as is exactly what Mr Henry done, the value is paid to the creditors and the remaining sum to the shareholders! Which across the park meant the owners got nothing, zilch!!
Lets just say the mail got it right, I mean no smoke without fire and all that. If they want £100m and for the potential owners to then take on the debt and fund a new stadium (even though the stadium funds are ringfenced according to bill), do you seriously believe anyone in their right mind would value EFC that high??
When H&G were selling the kopites, there were no interested parties apparently... or should I say any interested parties weren't interested enough as far as H&G made us believe. Hmm... I sense a bit of deja-vu!
There were no interested parties in Liverpool when H & G were drowning in debt. Which is to say that on one wanted to buy the club at a fair price when they could all see that the current owners were in massive trouble... they wanted to profit from that situation.
A good few people were interested, like sharks sniffing around a bleeding body. When the debt problem got so bad the bank was able to force H&G to enter a clause while renegotiating the debt a last time to say that the bank could enforce an interim board to sell the club if the club failed a further time to meet its responsibilities.
When the debt situation worsened, and no buyers came forward as H&G's were still desperately trying to make a profit, the bank struck... in went the new board, club was put on the market for bare minimum to ensure a quick sale so the bank could get its money back.
Most of the buyers that had been circling, now that the extent of the blood letting/debt was known, sloped off... the price still to rich for them. The club (debt) was sold in a bank enforced sale which was described at the time as 'an epic swindle'.
In short, if any of that gives you a sense of deja-ve in respect of Everton then you've got a screw loose.
There are only two similarities between the two situations. Firstly, they both involved football clubs. Secondly, some of the fans of both clubs made **** of themselves in a manner which provided nothing of value other than entertainment for the fans of other clubs.
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Posts: 120September 2011koolhandluke8 said:
you suggested it in your post #58...
he wouldn't put it in the public domain for the very reason it's being questioned now...for some it would be too cheap..for others it would be too dear....i will gaurantee that wherever it is being offered there will be a "price tag" on it..it's just not for every Tom DICK and harry to see...
he doesn't tell them the valuation he tells them the asking price...the buyers auditors will thell the buyer their audited valuation...the comparables and variables in such a thing as a football club make it too difficult "to just put a price upon it" and as stated previously form the seller it is usually a high price anyway to incorporate the variables....
"....i will gaurantee that wherever it is being offered there will be a "price tag" on it" - Agreed so why can't we know it? What detrimental effect would it have do you think if we (tom dick and harry) know the price tag? BK and his cronies own the club and know what they want for it so it's not like by making it public opinion they will be forced to reduce it. If its too cheap then we should have flock loads of buyers knocking on BKs door, not a bad thing.
"...the comparables and variables in such a thing as a football club make it too difficult "to just put a price upon it" - well does it or doesn't it have a price tag? Contradiction pal. -
Posts: 24,733September 2011bluedayz said:sambo applecart said:
you would think so luke, unless you have the money to buy the club, what business is it of anybody elses..?!
Sorry, I'm just waiting for the next part of this post... you know the bit where you say 'Only joking'.
By paying money every season to EFC we have an invested interest as to where the club is going!
By supporting Everton all my life, along with my family, we have invested emotions in this club!
If the club cannot be sold to ambitious investors who want to move the club on, we want to know why. The only viable reasons left are either due to the fact that the price is too high, or the board aren't trying hard enough! By method of elimation we will get to the truth. If the club is not sold soon, what will we sell next to stop the banks from putting us on our knees?
Barkley? Rodwell? Fellaini? Baines? Take your pick.
The loans of players brought in are just that, loans. This is a fearful future for EFC if things continue in this way.Emotions are not money mate, i appreciate your view point, but i dont have the money to buy the club as im sure you dont, so its really none of our business how much the club is for sale from my perspective. Along with putting money into the club i also put money into sainsburys every week when i do my shopping, and i like sainsburys, infact i love shopping there, but however much i spend, is it any business of mine as to whether the business were to get sold or not?? If your that bothered about how much the club is for sale for, why dont you contact the club as a prospective buyer and find out a price??You can think what you like mate, its your choice to have your opinion, but for me, its none of my business, and i'll keep it that way. -
Posts: 120September 2011ToffeeCup said:bluedayz said:briceybaby said:
i think it would be a bad move to come out with an asking price when trying to sell a football club. Mainly because all the variables like share price, interest rates, on field asset value and debt etc, go up and down quite a lot. Look at all the trouble mike Ashley had when he put Newcastle on the market after they went down.....he came out with a price and whatever interest that buyers might of had, went out the window.
its not like selling a house because, short of getting a survey done, what you see is what you get. to put a club on the market with an asking price would also require you to include in the ''add'' all the financial ins and outs and, we all know how that story goes....
If interest in Newcastle went out the window when Mike Ashley confirmed a price, the only thing that confirms is that the price was too high! Why else would a potential new owner or investor be put off by the price tag being revealed?
You are indeed correct in saying that in the selling process the accounts would have to be revealed and yes we all know about that just as Mr Henry across the park knew too well when he was buying into them. Bad accounts does not necessarily change the value of the club to the potential buyer... it just means, as is exactly what Mr Henry done, the value is paid to the creditors and the remaining sum to the shareholders! Which across the park meant the owners got nothing, zilch!!
Lets just say the mail got it right, I mean no smoke without fire and all that. If they want £100m and for the potential owners to then take on the debt and fund a new stadium (even though the stadium funds are ringfenced according to bill), do you seriously believe anyone in their right mind would value EFC that high??
When H&G were selling the kopites, there were no interested parties apparently... or should I say any interested parties weren't interested enough as far as H&G made us believe. Hmm... I sense a bit of deja-vu!
There were no interested parties in Liverpool when H & G were drowning in debt. Which is to say that on one wanted to buy the club at a fair price when they could all see that the current owners were in massive trouble... they wanted to profit from that situation.
A good few people were interested, like sharks sniffing around a bleeding body. When the debt problem got so bad the bank was able to force H&G to enter a clause while renegotiating the debt a last time to say that the bank could enforce an interim board to sell the club if the club failed a further time to meet its responsibilities.
When the debt situation worsened, and no buyers came forward as H&G's were still desperately trying to make a profit, the bank stuck... in went the new board, club was put on the market for bare minimum to ensure a quick sale so the bank could get its money back.
Most of the buyers that had been circling, now that the extent of the blood letting/debt was known, sloped off... the price still to rich for them. The club (debt) was sold in a bank enforced sale which was described at the time as 'an epic swindle'.
In short, if any of that gives you a sense of deja-ve in respect of Everton then you've got a screw loose.
There are only two similarities between the two situations. Firstly, they both involved football clubs. Secondly, some of the fans of both clubs made **** of themselves in a manner which provided nothing of value other than entertainment for the fans of other clubs.
How long have Everton been up for sale? According to BK, years! In his words he wants out.
In all these years it has apparently been up for sale, the board have stressed EFC is running a tight ship. One of the best run clubs in the PL, apparently. They let us believe all was rosy with the accounts and we could live within our means.
So based on your thesis above, yes we are not like liverpool when H&G were in charge because it has never been common knowledge we were a sinking ship. So why did no one want to buy EFC then?
It's not because they are greedy and waiting for EFC to sink because EFC were apparently (I use this word a lot ey) not a sinking ship like liverpool. Our debt was manageable!
Based on your thesis again, you think H&G were selling liverpool at a fair price! They at one point wanted £650m not including the debts!!! Do you really believe this is a fair price and the interested parties just wanted to profit, so waited for the banks to do something about it?
Jeez... and you say I have a screw loose! [shakes head] -
Posts: 24,733September 2011 If i have a credit card, and my limit is 5k, if i have 2k on my card and pay off 80 quid every month, is my debt manageable??
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Posts: 194September 2011 I suspect, hypothetical if the 100m asking price was true, then that would include the debt
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Posts: 120September 2011sambo applecart said:bluedayz said:sambo applecart said:
you would think so luke, unless you have the money to buy the club, what business is it of anybody elses..?!
Sorry, I'm just waiting for the next part of this post... you know the bit where you say 'Only joking'.
By paying money every season to EFC we have an invested interest as to where the club is going!
By supporting Everton all my life, along with my family, we have invested emotions in this club!
If the club cannot be sold to ambitious investors who want to move the club on, we want to know why. The only viable reasons left are either due to the fact that the price is too high, or the board aren't trying hard enough! By method of elimation we will get to the truth. If the club is not sold soon, what will we sell next to stop the banks from putting us on our knees?
Barkley? Rodwell? Fellaini? Baines? Take your pick.
The loans of players brought in are just that, loans. This is a fearful future for EFC if things continue in this way.Emotions are not money mate, i appreciate your view point, but i dont have the money to buy the club as im sure you dont, so its really none of our business how much the club is for sale from my perspective. Along with putting money into the club i also put money into sainsburys every week when i do my shopping, and i like sainsburys, infact i love shopping there, but however much i spend, is it any business of mine as to whether the business were to get sold or not?? If your that bothered about how much the club is for sale for, why dont you contact the club as a prospective buyer and find out a price??You can think what you like mate, its your choice to have your opinion, but for me, its none of my business, and i'll keep it that way.
I don't have an emotional attachment to Sainsburys and if they went bust because the current owners couldn't fund the buying of products to sell to customers, I would go to ASDA or Tesco without a care in the world. I do not want to support Tranmere or worse liverpool thank you very much!
It is indeed my chioce of opinion to believe the fans should be made aware of the sale price, as it is yours but let me remind you after saying it is your opinion that it is none of your business, it was you who had stated 'what business is it of anyones elses?'. That my dear sir means your questioning what business is it of mine and so I am responding as to why I think it is of my business. -
Posts: 120September 2011sambo applecart said:
If i have a credit card, and my limit is 5k, if i have 2k on my card and pay off 80 quid every month, is my debt manageable??
If you told me it was I would believe you. -
Posts: 194September 2011sambo applecart said:
If i have a credit card, and my limit is 5k, if i have 2k on my card and pay off 80 quid every month, is my debt manageable??
as long as your income covered the 80 notes each month, then I guess you could say your debt was serviceable. The banks would be happy because they are making a nice amount of interest from you.
however, if you wanted to sell your card....would you sell it for 5k to clear the debt on it, or say 2k to get you out of the debt and allow the buyer the extra 3k to play with? I suspect, like a football club with debt, it would be somewhere in between.
nice analogy dude!
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Posts: 120September 2011briceybaby said:
I suspect, hypothetical if the 100m asking price was true, then that would include the debt
If indeed this is the case then I think it would be a decent valuation of the club and bill should have nothing to hide :)
So why is he still hiding it? -
Posts: 3,035September 2011bluedayz said:koolhandluke8 said:
you suggested it in your post #58...
he wouldn't put it in the public domain for the very reason it's being questioned now...for some it would be too cheap..for others it would be too dear....i will gaurantee that wherever it is being offered there will be a "price tag" on it..it's just not for every Tom DICK and harry to see...
he doesn't tell them the valuation he tells them the asking price...the buyers auditors will thell the buyer their audited valuation...the comparables and variables in such a thing as a football club make it too difficult "to just put a price upon it" and as stated previously form the seller it is usually a high price anyway to incorporate the variables....
"....i will gaurantee that wherever it is being offered there will be a "price tag" on it" - Agreed so why can't we know it? What detrimental effect would it have do you think if we (tom dick and harry) know the price tag? BK and his cronies own the club and know what they want for it so it's not like by making it public opinion they will be forced to reduce it. If its too cheap then we should have flock loads of buyers knocking on BKs door, not a bad thing.
"...the comparables and variables in such a thing as a football club make it too difficult "to just put a price upon it" - well does it or doesn't it have a price tag? Contradiction pal.
like i've stated many times it will have a ASKING PRICE the ASKING PRICE would be overstated to accommodate the variables...it's why it goes into negotiation.....you seem to think that you can just say it's £100 million for example and thats it ...it's more complicated than that BELEIVE ME....
and AGAIN.... why would EFC want that price in "the public domain" the detrimental effect would be that for 1 party it would be too cheap..for another iot would be too dear !! it also leaves us wide open to the scrutiny of the media who would then disect all the minutia of detail they wish to make up !! this would have a detrimental effect an oany starying price EFC have put on the club !! -
Posts: 120September 2011briceybaby said:sambo applecart said:
If i have a credit card, and my limit is 5k, if i have 2k on my card and pay off 80 quid every month, is my debt manageable??
as long as your income covered the 80 notes each month, then I guess you could say your debt was serviceable. The banks would be happy because they are making a nice amount of interest from you.
however, if you wanted to sell your card....would you sell it for 5k to clear the debt on it, or say 2k to get you out of the debt and allow the buyer the extra 3k to play with? I suspect, like a football club with debt, it would be somewhere in between.
nice analogy dude!
I'm sorry, I fail to see that analogy in the original post? All I seen was a question about whether the debt is manageable.
I didn't want to presume anything that wasn't actually said :/ -
Posts: 24,733September 2011bluedayz said:sambo applecart said:
If i have a credit card, and my limit is 5k, if i have 2k on my card and pay off 80 quid every month, is my debt manageable??
If you told me it was I would believe you.
Thats fair enough mate, apologies for wording it that it wasn't anybodies business, of course it depends on who's perspective you are looking at it from, so yeah, from my perspective it is none of my business, from where you are coming from it maybe is :). My point more than anything was that as much as we support and follow a club and even have an emotional bond with the club, its for the people that own it to sell the club and get the right price for everyone concerned, and if the club was mine thats exactly what i would be trying to do :).And thanks, thats trust for you in the other post ;) looool -
Posts: 194September 2011 haha, I read it as simplifying the clubs selling position inc the debt, by comparing it to a credit card..................but then, sambo could have a credit card with a 5k limit :)
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